加速黑人在金融服务机构和文化障碍方面的包容
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基本播客,第39集:加速金融服务中的黑色纳入 - 制度与文化障碍

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每日更新:2021年6月8日

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思维领导力:埃克森美孚董事会下台标志着投资者参与气候变化的临界点


基本播客,第39集:加速金融服务中的黑色纳入 - 制度与文化障碍

关于这个事件

伦敦智库New Financial的合伙人亚斯明·钦瓦拉(Yasmine Chinwala)和标普全球普氏能源资讯(S&P Global Platts)的首席法律官皮埃尔·戴维斯(Pierre Davis)研究了New Financial关于英国专业领域包含黑人、金融业缺少黑人面孔的最新研究。以及公司在乔治·弗洛伊德(George Floyd)被谋杀后下一步应该做什么。

标普全球的Essential播客致力于与那些在金融市场工作和受金融市场影响的人分享必要的情报。主持人内森·亨特(Nathan Hunt)通过采访来自世界各地的主题专家,集中讨论了对全球金融市场具有直接重要性的问题——宏观经济趋势、信贷周期、气候风险、能源转型和全球贸易。

请收听并订阅这期播客苹果播客Spotify谷歌播客,Deezer。

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  • 加速黑色夹杂物该研究由标普全球多样性研究实验室(S&P Global’s Diversity research Lab)赞助,旨在倾听、学习和采取行动,改善金融服务业黑人同事的发展。

成绩单

Nathan亨特:从事金融业的黑人不多。这种说法显然是正确的,但也极具争议。金融本应是精英统治。唯一重要的颜色应该是绿色。那么,为什么金融业的黑人不多呢?S&B Global赞助了伦敦智库New Financial的一项研究,该智库认为,资本市场能够而且应该成为促进经济和社会福祉的力量。这项研究的主题是“工作场所中的黑人包容”。这里是标普全球的播客节目,我是内森·亨特。我和Yasmine Chinwala一起,她是新金融的合伙人之一。

亚斯明Chinwala:我叫Yasmine Chinwala。我是总部设在伦敦的新金融智库的合伙人。我们是一个资本市场智库,我们专注于为资本市场提供积极的案例我负责我们的多样性和文化报道。

Nathan亨特:还有标普全球普氏能源资讯首席法律官皮埃尔·戴维斯的著作。也是这项研究的参与者。

皮埃尔·戴维斯:嗨,我是标准普尔全球普拉特的首席法律官员Pierre Davis,我在伦敦。

Nathan亨特:我们会讨论种族,我们会讨论金融,我们会讨论需要改变什么来让金融的精英制度更加精英化。雅思敏,我想谈谈“加速黑人包容”报告,但我也想谈谈你和你的团队对这个话题的紧迫感。2020年5月,乔治·弗洛伊德被一名警察谋杀。那起谋杀案发生在明尼苏达州的明尼阿波利斯市。贵公司的总部设在伦敦。为什么乔治·弗洛伊德的死会促使你的团队关注改善金融服务业黑人同事的发展?

亚斯明Chinwala:所以,我们一直在想一段时间,我们可以根据一段关于种族和种族的研究。我认为我非常陷入陷阱,即许多组织在内,这是有足够的质量数据。因此,我们无法真正做任何事情。我反映出这是一个错误,我陷入了同样的陷阱。我非常激烈地主张,因为所有公司都不应该陷入陷阱。但只是因为这是在美国的一部分发生的事情,是的,是的,这是之前发生的事情,可能会再次发生。响应是如此全球化,回应是到目前为止的响应,如此宽阔,我们曾在英国抗议。有守夜,有游行,有抗议活动确实确实在我们政府委员会的紧迫感,跨社会和我们如何回应这件事?前进的方式是什么?这就是为什么我认为,对。 I need to look at this again and work out how can we actually do a piece of research? And I think the other thing that happened shortly after the murder of George Floyd was there were a lot of events going on a lot of virtual events because of COVID everybody's working virtually. Panel events and webinars being hosted around responses to the questions around race, which just have not been asked really in public forums in the UK, certainly not in the workplace and watching some of these webinars, seeing some of these panelists and seeing how they were talking about their experiences, they were reliving some of the worst moments in their lives, where they were made to feel so small or utterly humiliated and it was really harrowing. It was harrowing to watch, to hear, but it was clearly so, so painful for them to be sharing this experience. I thought, well, we've got to capture this. We can't keep asking this same small group to tell their stories time and time again. We've got to capture this, and we've got to capture the sense of urgency to act that we went through in the second half of 2020, so that we can record it for history really.

Nathan亨特:Yasmine,我对你谈论数据陷阱很感兴趣。标普全球有一个多样性研究实验室,实际上致力于用我们自己的数据解决这个问题。你认为为什么没有关于黑人在金融服务业的经历的数据?

亚斯明Chinwala:因此,我认为在金融服务中,当然,它是一个数据LED行业。这并不复杂,预期,我认为我们在英国肯定和可能在emea,多样性重点在女性代表中非常一直存在,并将更多的妇女带入高级领导角色。我们现在已经到了一个关于女性代表的数据的舞台,真的,真的很敏锐。这是非常好的品质。我们拥有非常优质的生命周期数据,因此我们可以看到职业生命周期。我认为期望是我们所需要的,以便在黑色包含周围的议程周围移动任何事情。但我们还没有那里。我们没有相同的数据级别。除了代理人之外的任何其他数据点,性别都需要一定程度的自我报告某种识别过程,我们只是没有那个。大多数公司,大多数组织都没有这些地区的数据级别。 They haven't been having conversations with their staff to try and really create a sense of comfort and a relationship with them around "please share your data with us because we're going to use it for these purposes and we're going to use it for a force for good for the organization" without that good quality data. There's a sense of, "oh, well, we can't do anything because we don't have the data. So, we can't really drive change. I don't see evidence without the data."

皮埃尔·戴维斯:我认为在英国,与美国相反。在欧洲的其他地方也一样,人们倾向于保持隐私,希望自己的个人信息和生活保持隐私。有张力之间的绝对必要的自我认同为了在这个领域取得进展,获得足够的数据,我们看到的信任水平和其他东西,很多尤其是黑人没有在社会和他们的公司。所以这种压力是存在的但是我非常支持说我们需要利用现有的数据,我们需要鼓励自我认同,但是我们需要继续前进。我们需要向前迈进当我们没有绝对完美的数据集像我们这样的公司可以推断我们可以弄清楚数据表明什么即使我们没有百分之百完整,等等。我认为我们必须停止认为数据是一种障碍,而只是在我们已有的基础上前进。

亚斯明Chinwala:这甚至不仅仅是个障碍,皮埃尔。数据成为了不采取行动的借口我们必须超越它,说,是的,数据是试图解决问题的重要部分。它本身不应该是一个问题,它本身也不应该成为一个无法克服的问题。这就是我们在相当长的一段时间里被困住的地方。重点是数字。人们忘记了声音就是数据。个人经历就是证据。

Nathan亨特:皮埃尔,你是一名美国人,一个在伦敦生活的黑人,在金融服务中工作。这是你的感觉,即乔治·弗洛伊德的谋杀案是一个叫醒的电话,甚至给你的非美国同事?

皮埃尔·戴维斯:是的,当然。乔治·弗洛伊德之死为我们敲响了警钟,原因有几个。我的意思是,第一,没有办法回避它是什么。每个人都看过或听说过那盘录像带。这是一名手无寸铁的黑人在光天化日之下被一名警察杀害的视频。那里没有黑暗的小巷。没有人把手机错当成枪。我们有时听到的试图为谋杀黑人辩护的那些事情都是不存在的。发生了什么事,清清楚楚。这在全世界引起了共鸣。 And I think Yasmine has pointed to some of those. We saw the ignition of protests worldwide, including in London that resonated with the Black British community police don't kill Black people in the street as often in the UK, as they do in the U.S. But they don’t generally carry weapons and it's not as violent of a society, but there still are a lot of problems with racist police and, uh, institutional racism in the UK. And so, I think it it's stoked those embers in the UK as well. And amongst the Black community gear in a very similar way, frankly, and in some ways it triggered conversations about race, about institutional racism, about systemic racism that hadn't occurred at all in the UK in the past, whereas in the U.S. those conversations have been there, but they've been conducted in sort of fits and starts or when we see an incident like Rodney King, or we see the innumerable instances of violence by the police and others against Black people. They've ebbed and flowed, but the George Floyd one was that catalyst, because I think it was just so stark and so real for everyone

Nathan亨特:Pierre,一个让我感到非常惊讶的事情之一,对乔治弗洛伊德谋杀的全球反应是,人们超越了谈论警察暴力对美国的黑人。我惊讶的是,它导致了关于金融服务中的机构种族主义的内省,在不同的国家。你惊讶地看到谈话,那么转过身来吗?

皮埃尔·戴维斯:是的,出乎意料。我的意思是,如果我们把自己回到去年5月,这是意想不到的,在我认为数以百万计的其他黑人会如何反应,它将打击此类深神经,真正提出情绪,我们都曾在内心深处,但给我们带来了一个位置,我们想要表达的地方我们没有;在工作场所,包括在金融服务业工作场所,所以我认为引发,我认为这是领导的黑人社区,包括我,坦白地说,我们开始交谈,我认为人需要理解黑人的感受,当这一切发生的时候一次又一次。我认为这导致了一种觉醒,一种社会中的每个人都会说,哪里错了?为什么我们不能把它弄对呢?为什么这种情况一次又一次地发生?这个社会怎么了?这引发了对更深层次问题的思考,社会的不平等,企业的不平等,等等,这是我们解决这个问题的唯一途径。警察改革是必要的,但还不够。你永远不可能在社会上获得平等,除非你的平等对话的一部分是关于如何在生活的各个方面提高人们的地位。

Nathan亨特:yasmine,在美国,关于体育种族主义存在的讨论往往会受到政治上充满政治的。你做了你的研究,与金融服务公司的人交谈,有多少意识是种族主义和对黑人同事的影响?你有没有得到很多人告诉你我们在这里没有种族主义的问题?

亚斯明Chinwala:所以,这项研究非常关注黑人同事的经历。即使在这群人中,也有一小部分人。我采访的一些黑人专业人士说,他们个人没有经历过种族主义,但每个人都接受在工作场所存在种族主义,因为社会上也存在种族主义。我发现这个讨论,是的,种族主义存在于社会中,但它不存在于工作场所,因为我们把它留在了门外。这完全是一种荒谬的看待它的方式,因为我们不能把社会抛在门外。它引出了这些联系,理解为什么这是一个完全错误的观点是非常非常重要的。这是在2020年6、7月乔治·弗洛伊德去世后的所有讨论中得出的结论。有很多关于“种族主义是如何在工作场所表现出来的?”当我去工作的时候,制度性的种族主义对我来说到底意味着什么?我认为这样的讨论就没有之前,正如皮埃尔刚刚谈到了在英国,讨论在种族和民族一直是这样的紧张,这样的一个试探性的,只是还没有发生或已经发生,只是在小口袋。 The murder of George Floyd has really shot the Black inclusion agenda to the top. And those discussions that were non-existent. Move from being between groups of Black people to actually being with white colleagues as well. It's moved from that very personal sphere to a professional sphere. So, conversations that people were having just at home with their friends, they're having them at work. And the discussion really is moving from taboo to omnipresent. That happened really, really rapidly. And then what that meant was that the professionals that we spoke to, they themselves moved from being low to super high visibility in their organizations. They were being asked to talk about their experiences.

皮埃尔·戴维斯:我只会补充一点,它甚至不一定是英国黑色专业人士发生的对话。我的意思是,我记得六年前我第一次到达的时候。我正在考虑与另一个有点激励我考虑的同事开始,以便在伦敦的螺栓Erg的Emea章中开始,但对于Emea。我问道,开始说话,看看黑人同事是否会感兴趣。And I remember distinctly one colleague saying, well, "you know, we don't have the kinds of issues and racism that you have in the U.S. here in the UK. It's not an issue in the corporate world, et cetera. And I said, well, okay, how many Black CEOs do you have in the city of London? And the person said, well, I think one, by the way, it's now none. And I said, well, you've got a problem then you're just not recognizing it as one. You know, the George Floyd murder, even amongst the Black community in London, was an impetus to start having this conversation. And, you know, for better or worse, as Yasmine said, there was a lot of responsibility, I guess, placed on Black professionals around London, but at the same time, that is really necessary in order to start the dialogue and to keep it going in a meaningful way. It wasn't a conversation that happened in the same way at all, as far as I could tell as it's happening now.

Nathan亨特:在这一点上,这是一种禁忌的讨论。雅思敏,在你的报告发表前不久的三月份,英国政府委员会就种族和民族差异发表了另一份报告。他们的报告相当长,但除其他外,它似乎确实表明在联合王国体制结构上的种族主义不再是一个问题。我很好奇。对你们俩来说,这是否符合你们在研究中看到的以及你们在自己生活中看到的

亚斯明Chinwala:简而言之,没有。那个出来的报告,它得到了很广泛批评和讨论,而不通过不同的方式解释它的线条。我觉得这场领域的标题是,这并不是真正有任何其他数据在这一领域的任何其他数据,特别是政府在这一领域的研究。因此,政府委托有多个近期审查,绝对确定并讨论了机构种族主义的不同领域。我会指出,我们在加速黑色包容方面发表的那一天,这是早晨在英国的42岁的黑人纳入中。当我在推出时设定4月22日的日期时,我没有意识到,这实际上是斯蒂芬劳伦斯日。斯蒂芬·劳伦斯是一个黑色少年,被一群白人在南伦敦的街道上谋杀,一个人在等待一辆公共汽车,实际上只是站在公共汽车站。这是九十年代的一个真正痛心的时刻。所以,这是他去世的周年纪念日。这也是英联邦Walgreens委员会出版的两项不同的报告,观察了非洲士兵在War War Graves委员会对非洲士兵治疗的种族主义。 And also, there was another piece looking at institutional racism in the church of England. So again, it just turns me back to that point that we already discussed that if racism exists in society, it doesn't have boundaries. It's not discreet, it's fluid and it exists in all spheres.

皮埃尔·戴维斯:我没有时间看萨先生的报告,我已经说过很多次,我将参与对该报告的深刻批评。我觉得这是最好的迎合。人们想听到一个确定的结论,而这正是他们从政府的报告中得到的。我认为这是非常不幸和令人失望的。我想很多人都认识到了这是什么。我的意思是,用一个术语来粉饰,英国参与奴隶贸易的事实,或者我们不需要关于无意识偏见和其他显而易见需要的东西的培训。事实上,正如我提到的,这个例子,伦敦的黑人高级专业人员是多么的少,数据本身,实证数据只是在向你尖叫报告是在试图满足委托它的人。我认为它已经受到了足够广泛的批评,我不需要继续谈论它,但我想说的是,如果这是你读过的关于英国存在种族主义的唯一一份报告,请多读一些,了解你自己的判断。

Nathan亨特:Pierre是我发现最新的财务报告的东西,加速黑色包容的报告是包括在黑人文本中,在金融服务中纳入的报价,关于他们自己的经历。我想读一个一个例子,它说,我引用了。“我不得不面对我对我所谈论的事情有多少次,这对我来说,我被原谅,消除,不包括在我的道路上变得更加成功。”您是否发现了这些类型的报价,反映了您在伦敦金融服务工作的经验?

皮埃尔·戴维斯:是的。我的意思是,我发现它们反映了我的生活经历。每个黑人都需要划分并思考如何解决在他们生活的某个时刻受到的不恰当的评价被错误地看待给你额外的负担来满足或实现同样的成功。我的意思是,我认为这不是黑人独有的,对吧?我的意思是,其他移民的故事都是一样的,但我认为大多数黑人都经历过两件事。一个是,他们的父母或导师告诉他们,要达到同样的目标,他们必须付出两倍的努力。我认为这是一个非常普遍的问题,我认为肯定有人对我说过,我想了很多。和第二件事是我想大多数人在职业环境中,包括在金融服务业在伦敦,我有言论对他们或有另一个经验,是很不恰当的说,即使它没有明确的种族主义,但事情真的不坐好,你不得不吞下或或者干脆放手,或者决定如何应对。我认为这是非常普遍的。 That quote that you read resonates with me, but the experience resonates with me very broadly. And it's not just at any particular company or in any particular industry. I think Black people who are working through the ranks in a professional environment always have to deal with that and confront things that were done to them and figure out how to react to them and I remember briefly, my late father told me, you know, he said, well, "you know, you're working in this corporate environment. But just remember I have a house that's completely paid for you and your family can come and live here. You don't have to pay. You'll always have a home with me, but never let them mess with your dignity." I'm going to carry that through the rest of my life. But I think that's probably how I'd sum that point up, which is you figure out where the boundary is and don't let anyone mess with your dignity.

Nathan亨特:雅思敏,在你整理数据准备这份报告的时候,你认为金融服务业中的种族主义是怎样的它的形式是怎样的?

亚斯明Chinwala:我认为我从这些采访中得到的关键启示是,有必要提高对种族主义构成因素的理解。因为我认为这是一个焦点也许这也和你提到的政府评论有关,人们认为的种族主义,不是黑人的人,是种族主义非常激进,暴力的终结。非常明显的种族言论,种族问题,很暴力。人们常说"我从来没做过这种事"我身体里没有种族歧视的骨头。”你会听到这样的表达。但实际上,它在工作场所表现为一种更随意的种族主义。我们在研究我所说的种族主义的连续性时讨论过。所以,一方面,我们看到了非常明显的极端种族主义,但另一方面,它非常非常微妙,也非常普遍。但这造成了累积效应创造了一个充满敌意的工作环境它创造了一个黑人同事努力发展的工作环境,我可以给你们一些具体的例子。 For example, having somebody say, oh, "you weren't what I was expecting. You didn't sound Black on the phone." Being mistaken for security or catering or maintenance, a conversation being addressed to a more junior white colleague. That's the kind of more subtle racism and how it manifests in the workplace. Being stared at, for example, because there's so few Black colleagues in the office or being repeatedly confused for another Black colleague, because there's only two. So those are some examples of the more everyday racism that the interview is talked about in our research.

Nathan亨特:Pierre是报告中对我而真实的事情之一,是多样性,公平和包容性问题的负担往往会在我们的黑人同事上不成比例地下降。他们背负着向白人解释种族主义的额外工作。所以作为一个黑人,你经常在工作场所呼吁作为一个黑人,而不是像皮埃尔一样说话吗?

皮埃尔·戴维斯:我的一言一行都是作为一个黑人,而不仅仅是皮埃尔。我认为这就是社会决定对待不同公民的方式。我确实认为黑人在工作场所被呼吁从黑人的角度发声并且承担起为所有黑人发声的责任。我自愿承担这个责任。我认为现在是继续进行这些对话的时候了。我不会试图从和别人一样的角度去做。如果我们讨论种族主义以及种族主义是如何运作的,对吧?我会让亚伯拉罕·肯尼迪和简·艾略特这样的人去做。我试着用另一种方式来做这件事,那就是灌输一点同理心。去年我开始,我写了一个小博客对黑人艺术和文学和音乐在某种程度上,我们可以人性化黑经验的人,我自己的经验和我的那些同事,我认为这是真正的开始允许不仅停止杀害黑人在街上, but to really allow people to see the people behind the race and to humanize all of us, me, you know, I can speak as a Black man, but I want to eventually get to the place that you're talking about, which is people just looking me as Pierre and I'm good at what I do. I have good perspectives on things, but I don't think we're there yet. And so, I do take on that burden of speaking about the Black experience, but it's a means to an end, from my perspective.

亚斯明Chinwala:这是我们实际明确要求面试的事情是您如何在工作中与黑人纳入议程一起参与?自谋杀乔治弗洛伊德以来,这种情况如何变化?并且存在巨大的压力,巨大压力是谈话的一部分。有些人觉得他们别无选择,而是参加。我们所有的受访者都被要求在小组事件的听力会议上发言,其中许多人最终结束了与比赛的公司对话的正面和中心。万博专业介绍是的,绝对是像皮埃尔一样,他们愿意这样做,他们感到义务在道德上做到这一点,他们想这样做,但它成为第二个工作。这是一个非常大的负担。这是他们被要求做的一大作品。在那里掌握了建立简介的机会,建立与高级管理层的机会之间的张力,在您对您感到热情的事情中的变化,但它杂耍的巨大工作量,许多人都感到灵感和赋予讲话和赋予更自由地说话。 But there is that tension there around, okay, how will this work that I'm doing? How is it going to be rewarded? How is it going to be balanced against the other work that I do? And what is the end point of my doing this inclusion work?

Nathan亨特:Yasmine读了这份报告,很明显需要解决的最大问题之一就是进步和晋升。考虑到黑人在人口中的数量,黑人在高层或中层管理中是不够的。从统计学上讲,这毫无意义。你的研究告诉你是什么阻碍了黑人的发展?

亚斯明Chinwala:所以,我们在研究过程中想要做的就是谈谈受访者的职业发展轨迹,了解他们所面临的障碍这样我们就可以试着解开一些关于潜在行动是什么样的。我认为他们所说的很多日常种族主义的核心,以及这些刻板印象的体现是它真的改变了黑人同事的行为和工作量。对我来说,障碍的三大要点是:必须完美地完成皮埃尔已经提到过的东西。如果你的导师告诉你,你要付出两倍的努力才能获得成功。所有的受访者都说,要做到完美,他们觉得要做到完美,好到原来的两倍,没有犯错的余地。同时,作为黑人的风险感知也因此作为高级经理的风险感知也会支持黑人同事的发展。第二个主要方面是不知道不成文的规则。所以,再说一遍,这是贯穿所有多样性的东西,所有多样性的领域。而是学习游戏规则。所以,如果没有工具箱,没有网络,进程就会变慢,人们会自行填补空白。 And I think thirdly, and what makes this so unique within the financial services context is the culture of the financial services industry. And that's, what's unique about this research. What we really pull out through the research is we know in financial services, it's all about the bottom line. Performance is paramount the client is king. There's no time for anything else. So, this approach, what does that mean? It means that we have this real inertia. There's a real defaulting to shortcuts. For example, "I'm going to hire a friend of a friend because I can trust them, and I need to fill this slot quickly." There's that time-saving element, which really perpetuates this old-fashioned narrow view of, "who can be a successful leader?" And that's not a Black person at the moment because we don't really have a call of that people who are incredibly successful at the top of their game in the UK as role models. I've just sort of whizzed you through what I think are really the core barriers around progression issues.

Nathan亨特:在英国和美国,都没有更好的词来形容“内部人士”了。这些人上的是对的大学,有对的朋友,他们知道如何折叠口袋方巾,以及如何吃生牡蛎。所有这些规则都是不成文的,而你刚刚谈到了不成文的规则。那个俱乐部里的人似乎没有什么动机邀请别人进来。我们怎么解这个?你如何让那些没有上过牛津、剑桥或沃顿的人才在一个组织中茁壮成长?我们怎么才能雇佣朋友的朋友呢?

亚斯明Chinwala:这是个大问题。这是最大的问题。它跨越了多样性和包容性的各个方面。作为一个社会,我们还想继续我们过去的生活吗?我们想让更多的人加入进来,走向一个更加真实、真正的精英管理体制吗?因为我们现在的情况不是。如果金融服务业的人可以自己说,因为表现就是王,你可以有三个头,四条腿,蓝色,只要你能表现,你就会成功。但事实并非如此通过研究,我们在组织中看到的也不是这样。我们确定了五个关键领域,我会很快地讲一遍。首先,你提到了这是数据试图掌握数据,接受数据的缺陷,但真正向前发展并试图设定数据应该是什么样子的目标。 Secondly, sponsorship. We know that from all the interviews, the, everybody talks about the value of sponsors and having a really good relationship with a sponsor and how that can really elevate somebody's career. So, it's true. Really try and get at an organizational level, try to recreate what are otherwise very organic relationships between individuals and understanding that doesn't happen for Black colleagues in most cases. Thirdly as role models. So, it's seeking out recognizing, supporting, raising the profile of Black role models, because there are so few of them and as I already mentioned, there's this huge amount of workload attached to the diversity inclusion agenda. Number four is really confident conversations on race. So, we've already touched on this as well in the UK, this has not been a very open discussion, it's not been a frequent discussion, it's not a common discussion, but it's really trying to continue the discussions that we've been having and improve the quality of those discussions. Bring more people into those discussions and having them led by the dominant group. The fifth one and these aren't really in a particular running order, I suppose, because they all work together, and they all cross-fertilize. But the fifth one is this notion of transparency on career progression, because the more transparent we can be about this is what you need to do in order to get to the next level. Then that works, but everyone that works in everyone's favor and not just your office, Wharton graduates who can shotgun oyster at home, or can know which wine to choose with dinner in which cutlery to use for a full course meal. That's really that understanding of what do I need to do in order to get to the next level and then also for the organization to say, "what are the skills that we value when we promote, when we hire? Rather than it being a focus of where have you come from, what do you look like? How do you sound. It's really that shift, which is going to take time, but it's hopefully through conversations like this, where we can keep pushing back that these discussions around all meritocracy, but that means we're not going to have meritocratic promotion. We don't have meritocratic promotion right now. So, we need to move towards there.

皮埃尔·戴维斯:我会挑战一大堆的问题,甚至一些答案说,基线假设的问题是我们如何得到过去的想法,我们想寻找人才,没有去牛津剑桥或沃顿,等等?我对这个问题的第一个回答是,你没有利用剑桥大学的非洲学生联盟和美国所有商学院的黑人学生协会我们努力够了吗,还是这只是个借口?其次,我认为这个想法马上就变成了,我们必须降低去不同大学的标准,以便让人们进入大学。这真的很让人受宠若惊,你可以在各种各样的教育机构中找到有才华的明星。但他们的才能并不逊色。不能降低门槛。你只是没做对。我认为没有足够多的人会照镜子寻找自己的才华然后是第三件作品,她没有提到。当然,捷径是有的。但问题远不止于此,对吧? It's talking about really what it is. Is it that makes you feel comfortable with someone? And I remember I had a mentor at one point in my career who was partner at law firm where I worked. And he said. "You don't live in the city, same neighborhood, you don't belong to the same golf club, you don't go to the weddings and all of the other cell life celebrations, et cetera. You're not in that clique." And that is really important. But at the same time, it's not, it's not the fact that I don't know how to fold a pocket square or, you know, shuck an oyster I, and many other Black people know how to do that. It's deeper than that. And I think until people fundamentally realize that you're not taking shortcuts, or you're not just doing things to bring people in the door, or was a friend of a friend, you're xenophobic. And until you realize that you're xenophobic and you try to come that xenophobia by trying to figure out a little bit more and gain a little empathy and try to understand the world a little bit better, we're really not going to get anywhere. And so, yeah, that's an ideal world because it takes a lot for people to be that self-reflective, I think it's really necessary. The talent is out there. We're just not looking for it. And I agree that, you know, the numbers, aren't where they need to be certainly amongst senior leadership, but there are stars out there just waiting to be discovered and we need to take the discovery of those stars sort of more seriously, and not allow ourselves as a society or as professionals to take those shortcuts or to ignore that that's the case.

Nathan亨特:皮埃尔,我想问你一个最后的问题,然后我会给yasmine带来同样的问题,即当你今天看待金融服务时,当你想到你所知道的种族主义时,你想到的时候引起人们忽视那里的人才的仇外心理,在这个假设的宗教学会下,他们可以在这个假设的宗教学会中获得的才华,你是一个乐观主义者还是悲观主义者,关于事情的方向是什么?

皮埃尔·戴维斯:我想我是一个谨慎的乐观主义者。听着,我认为从过去几百年美国和其他地方的情况来看,我认为任何认为改变不是增量的人都是愚蠢的。所以,当我看到美国黑人的历史,包括我自己的祖先在密西西比被奴役时,我想,“好吧,我们已经从我的祖先在密西西比被奴役中走了很长的路。”我想,就在我父亲成长的过程中,他是在种族隔离的堪萨斯城长大的,他不被允许和白人在同一个饮水机旁饮水,他去了堪萨斯大学,并处理了有效的种族隔离问题。我们见证了民权运动的那一年,我们见证了学校种族隔离的废除,我们见证了社会开始变得更加平等,即使在今天,我们仍然有选举方面的问题,但已经比以前好了。然后我看到今天,篇博文中他弗洛伊德,我看到一个不同的对话发生在我有希望,我们有一个真正的时刻,我们不仅会开始看到综合警务改革和黑人被警察在街上杀少,仍发生我们都知道,在一个相当重要的剪辑。但我们看到社会上有更广泛的努力来更好地理解彼此,也认可我们看到的优秀,包括黑人社区。我认为我们已经迈出了一步我们有能力迈出一步。我不会盲目乐观地认为,所有人都会突然醒来,明天社会会奇迹般地变得完全平等。这只是我们几百年来所走过的渐进旅程的又一步,

Nathan亨特:雅思敏,想想研究和你自己的经历,当涉及到黑人参与金融服务时,你是乐观主义者还是悲观主义者?

亚斯明Chinwala:我想我必须说我是一个乐观主义者,否则我不会做我现在做的工作。我的工作就是把研究整合起来,分析我们为什么会有这些问题,我的重点是金融服务。我认为,从英国金融服务业的具体角度来看,我们有理由抱有希望。当然,政府监管机构、政策制定者、投资者、客户、顾客、雇员、社会、整个利益相关者围绕多样性包容的环境都发生了变化。这绝对包括黑人的融入以及黑人同事晋升到更高级的职位。所以,我认为有理由满怀希望,但与此同时,我不是幼稚,我希望,我很清楚需要做的工作量来,至少保持这个议程以及实际资源需要做的工作。但是,是的,我希望事情正在朝着正确的方向发展,我们的主要访谈对象是:“在后台活动议程中,成功是什么样子的?”最终的试金石是我们在五年后将会有同样的对话。内森,让我们从2026年开始。

Nathan亨特:亚斯明,皮埃尔。我想感谢你们两位所做的令人着迷和富有挑战性的讨论。能和你们两位交谈真是太愉快了。

亚斯明Chinwala:谢谢你们邀请我。

皮埃尔·戴维斯:谢谢你,内森。我很感激。

Nathan亨特:必不可少的播客由Molly Mintz制作,Kurt Burger和Lundon Lafci协助。在标普全球,我们通过提供对公司、政府和个人做出坚定决策至关重要的情报,加快市场的进展。我是内森·亨特,谢谢大家的聆听。

《必要播客》由莫莉·明茨编辑制作。